More games...

[dagibbs]

I just added 5 more games to my collection: Junta, Caesar and Cleopatra, Manoeuvre, Bananagrams, and Through the Desert. Whee! I should stop some time.

Comments

[icedrake.livejournal.com]

But why on earth would you?
(Also, do you know anything about Leonardo da Vinci? The game, that is)

[dagibbs.livejournal.com]

Because, if I keep adding games I'll run out of space to store them?

As to Leonardo da Vinci, funny you should ask. :) I just played it for the first time Monday evening (2 days ago) and quite liked it. It has been added to my "buy this" list. (Or, ask for as a Christmas/Birthday present, list.)

It is an interesting game of resource allocation and acquisition with an allocation of workers in a competitive way that is kind of like an auction -- but the workers can either get you stuff, or build stuff. And, even if you lose the auction to get stuff, really you lost the option to get it for free, but can still compensate by spending money on it.

Also, Board Game Geek (www.boardgamegeek.com) is an excellent place to find ratings and reviews of boardgames. For Leonardo Da Vinci, try: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/21920. Scroll down to the "Board Game Forums" section, and click on the "Reviews" filter to see a list of reviews of the game.

[icedrake.livejournal.com]

Neat. I may have to pick up a copy. After I get my copy of Through the Ages and Power Grid, that is.

Oh, I know of BGG. I asked you because BGG lacks one distinct advantage: I know nothing of the reviewers' tastes, whereas I've been witnessing your board game preferences for quite a while :)

[dagibbs.livejournal.com]

I've got Through the Ages, but haven't played it yet. Power Grid is a good game, and I love the market supply/demand mechanism, but I also sometimes find it a bit dry. Too much careful arithmetic. Doesn't mean I won't play and enjoy it, but other games excite me more.

It does make sense to ask someone who's taste you've witnessed.

[gabriel-le.livejournal.com]

doesn't ironphoenix have this game?

[dagibbs.livejournal.com]

I don't think so -- at least, it isn't listed on his BGG account as one he owns.

[ironphoenix.livejournal.com]

Correct; I not has.

Also, "Bananagrams" has more "na" than you gave it.

I'm surprised you got Junta... it didn't strike me as your kind of thing.

[dagibbs.livejournal.com]

Banananananananagrams has been edited for correctness.

Junta has been around for a while, and it was cheap. I think I paid $3 (plus some shipping) for it. If I don't like it, it didn't cost much. And, it is supposed to be fun. (And, it plays with up to 7 players, and is supposed to be better at the higher end.)

[ironphoenix.livejournal.com]

Thahahahahanks!

I've enjoyed it, certainly; it just didn't strike me as being your style.

[dagibbs.livejournal.com]

/me wonders what you think his style of game is.

[ironphoenix.livejournal.com]

That's hard to describe exactly, but there are a few attributes that seem to matter to you:

* Low chaos factor
* Broad range of (non-dominated) options
* High inter-player dynamics
* Low turn waiting time (this may be more a function of your group than you though, thinking about your shelf of chit-and-hex stuff)
* Low hidden information
* Significant long- or medium-term strategy

I usually guess that if most of these are present, you will like the game, but if most are missing, you won't.

[dagibbs.livejournal.com]

Most of those are about right. I don't mind longer waiting times in a 2-player game, but still not too long.

The low hidden information is the only one that is off. I played Bridge quite seriously for several years, and that is a high hidden-information game.

[ironphoenix.livejournal.com]

I may have extrapolated that from your disincliniation to play poker.

Bridge is not that high in hidden information, I find: in a given hand, once the bidding is done, there are probably about 6 to 10 bits of relevant hidden information (e.g., which of the two hidden hands has the heart queen, whether the diamond split is 3-2 or 4-1, etc.) With the information that can be gleaned from the bidding, a great deal of what isn't seen can be ded(e)uced.

A strong hidden-information game, in my view, is one in which players need to look for any possible cues to play well. Poker is the classic example, but Aladdin's Dragons is one of the better examples from the recent Eurogames. You played it, but I don't remember your reaction.

An interesting compromise is Reiner Knizia's Res Publica, which uses a set of rules for controlling information flow. It's a simple, light game in some ways, but it illustrates some very interesting principles of negotiation.

[dagibbs.livejournal.com]

I may have extrapolated that from your disincliniation to play poker.

What disinclination to play poker? I express interest in a previous poker game you hosted that gabriel_le was attending, but was told that there were already too many players. I am not a serious poker player, and I consider it a silly game unless played for some stakes, but I have played an enjoyed poker.

As far as hidden information in bridge, you may be correct that, by the time the dummy has come down, there may only be 6-10 bits of information still hidden. But, a hand of bridge really starts before the first call, and at that point there is a whole lot more hidden information. And, in many ways, finding the right contract is a huge part of the game -- so by starting your analysis at the play and just assuming the bidding, you've thrown away much of the game. And, if you're playing duplicate pairs, then the person you're really competing with isn't even at your table, so even once you start play, there is the hidden information of what contract did the other pairs play in, and what was their result. (In teams, you need only worry about one other table, not 10 or so.)

Bidding is all about revealing hidden information as efficiently as possible, and/or interfering with your opponents doing so. If there were only 6-10 bits of information to deal with, bidding systems would be trivial. I submit that they are clearly not trivial.

Where I've found that Euro games tend to bring in hidden information is in a bidding mechanism. As you mention, Aladdin's Dragons has this. A game on my shelf that has it would be Maya. Another place is card draws -- and lots of them have this. (Again, Aladdin's Dragons, but many others including Settlers.) A third place, where they nominally have hidden information is victory and/or money state -- e.g. Power Grid or Tigris & Euphrates. Here I call it nominally hidden, because in theory you actually have perfect information about money/victory points, but most people don't remember closely enough/well enough to hold the knowledge. (T&E has the tile draw, effectively equivalent to card draws.) Hm... Samurai has a similar hidden-info to T&E, both hidden drawn cards and nominally hidden victory state. I like all the games in this list, though Aladdin's Dragons is not a favourite.

I've never played Res Publica, so can't comment on it.

[beable]

Duplicate bridge is why (even though I have not played it myself - I understand the idea on how the objectives are different than in rubber kitchen bridge) eight clubs doubled is my favourite bid EVAR!

According to my dad, eight clubs was allowed as a bid in tournament up until sometime in the early fifties. But I phoned him to ask him if he could remember when they stopped allowing it and he said he didn't know - he had readat some point that it once was a legal bid but it certainly no longer is in the history of his playing.

[ironphoenix.livejournal.com]

Ah, I am misremembering, then. Duly noted; I will have to do another poker things sometime, and keep you on the list.

Valid point on the bidding being where hidden information is really active; I haven't had the opportunity to get into the bidding much, because I've never played enough to have a set of conventions solidly set up with a partner.

Bidding is all about revealing hidden information as efficiently as possible, and/or interfering with your opponents doing so.

I hadn't really thought of bidding as sabotaging information exchange... I guess it's a good way of looking at the pre-emptive bids.

I agree that the bidding systems are good hidden-information setups, but the card draws tend to be more of a twist than a central feature. Pseudo-hidden information is something I kind of don't like, but that's just because my memory is muddy (what's this river that I'm in?).